Thursday, January 6, 2011

An article "counting as" an article

Greetings interwebs! So last time I wrote a major article for my World Eaters I let Stelek use it and lets just say the forum comments were interesting to say the least. Here it is for all to see.

SinSynn said this here,
"Don’t get me started on Chaos ‘counts as’ Space Wolf armies….it’s like a plague on our hobby."
This was a comment I seem to hear alot and there is some truth to it but also something worth talking about.

*Mini rant* (oh great he's mad now)

Now alot of the negative comments were about the fact that they thought a World Eaters army is about Rhinos. Yes, Gav made the last codex so sucky that every Berzerker army had Rhinos and of course they needed them, most Marine armies do. In the good old 3.5 codex they made Raptors only have Jump Packs and for good reason. The models were awesome and the rules were fitting. (if only Raptors had Hit and Run now...) The old Jump Pack Assault armies for the World Eaters were left in the background and unfortunately stayed there. I have the rhino rush from Codex CSM, I've used it for the past three years  and now with the new Blood Angels codex the idea of the Assault Company's is now a dream to be realize by Khorne fans everywhere... and all people want is another Rhino Rush list. -_-

Now I'm building two BA "counts as" armies for myself the Predator spam and Assault company. I've always seen people whine about counts as saying that people are only using it to gain an advantage, like all of the Chaos wolves you see nowadays. Now I'm not going to say that doesn't happen, cause it does. But people have a ways of making only the bad what they see and ignore the good. I dislike that because to me the wonderful part of counts as isn't "having the best list ever" but is and always will be having the option to represent my space gladiators in a number of different lists with all different play styles.

I have four major lists and four major play styles associated with each:
A Rhino Rush with the CSM codex: a close combat mech list
A Predator Spam with the BA codex: a shooty mech list
A Logan Wing list with the SW codex: a reactive, shooty foot list
A Jump pack list with the BA codex: an aggressive and fast foot list

What I have here is four unique playing experiences and four unique modeling experiences for me to have fun with. I don't have to play the same list over and over and over and you get the picture

Although a little off topic I find it annoying when people get mad at the person who "count as" their chaos marines, but encourage the chaos guard. Must be good to be Dan over at Ten Inch Template... but then again he also has gone the distance to make the army look amazing like I intend to do. I can tell when people are just taking advantage of counts as simply by the effort they put into the army. I can tell you now, I'm not just throwing jumpacks on a bunch of old Berzerkers I have. To make my list there are challenges in making a well done counts as list, I don't want it just to be a simple list but it is being built to the best of its abilities. Unless anything changes I intend to bring my World Eater Assault Company to the NOVA and I want it to BE a World Eater list, and if that means converting 40+ uniquely posed Berzerkers so be it. (If you have ever seen the Berzerker sprue  you will understand how hard that can be)

I have 40+ Berzerkers waiting to be built and make the Jump Pack list of mine. Have bought 6 predators and 4 razorbacks (all that are magnetized to fit any flavor)… Yes my World Eaters enjoy not Rhino Rushing across the board for once, especially if there fluff described them as having the most brutal ASSAULT companies out there.

I think GW isn’t stupid enough to not realized the amount of money they are making with these “counts as” armies and it would be totally reasonable to keep this up for a while before releasing the codex with all new units and sets to make people have to buy a lot of new stuff in addition to all the new stuff they got for their “counts as”.

Believe me, there are the dudes that are using counts as only to play more competitively but there are a number of people (like me ^_^) who are using this to break free from the pathetic cage that Gav placed. I can play with and enjoy my favorite army of Space Gladiators while having fun and new units to convert and play with.

What do you guys think? Is counts as a problem, is it a way to "cheat the system".
Comments and suggestions are always appreciated.


  1. 1. Count as is ok as said by the rule book.

    2. People who complain can suck it, have them play with a "gav codex".

    3. If they have "fluff" complains they can suck it even more. Because if the CSM codex is one thing that it is non fluffy. And hey,fluff is the one thing that can be bend in each and every direction.

    4. If i pay huge amounts of money to convert and build things that are not made by gw or not made for chaos. I better be able to use them on the battlefield, competitively.

    5. If you(the "count as hater") don't want to play me. Fine. The chance that your army comes strait from a battleforce or is a noob hammer is high. People looking for good games can overlook their problems with "count-as"

  2. I see no issue in this.

    You've clearly identified a theme within the fluff that connects to the rules, you've laid down your cash and converting stuff up to make it fit both within the structure of a codex and the models background, and going with that.

    Sure they have "their own codex" but in reality, is that a major issue?

    You can attack "count as" from two sides, one is how your doing it, you have a theme in your head, and your trying to identify how best to represent that on the table. Or you have an army, your theme is already laid out (E.G Ultramarines) and then after a while you try to SEEK advantage.

    I dont see the issue all that much with count as - if you can justify it in your head, great. If you can write a story and make it sound cool, brilliant. If you chop and change because you suck with vanilla and think mephiston or logan are going to make your ultramarines better, then maybe theres an issue here.

    I feel I am a worse culprit than you. I make my own chapter, create some fluff and hey presto I can run 2 or 3 armies? Surely this makes me the worst of the lot. Indecisive and I pick no particular theme (though truth be told I do play BA's mainly and have plenty of BA stuff in the army).

    Good post Grim though, its a deep subject thats always bound to grate a lot of people

  3. "counts as" keeps me in the hobby...

    My Loganwing = Space Wolves 13th Company (vets on foot)
    Blood Angels = Soul Drinkers assault army
    Black Templar rule book = Word Bearer theme

  4. counts as is a sensible solution to serious play balance issues. people need to deal.